Semi-serious thoughts

[rosiphelee]

When I did my first degree, my tutor had a number of watchwords he used to frequently remind us of (much in the same way as Mad-Eye Moody 'reminds' people of the need for constant vigilance). His favourite was 'intellectual adventure.' Whatever we did, whichever options we chose, we were supposed to approach them in that spirit. At the time, like most students, I didn't appreciate it. It's stayed with me, though, and I find myself using it as a standard from time to time.

The lack of intellectual adventure was certainly one of the factors in making me look towards teaching. I was thinking about it again this morning, when Becca posted about why she wrote. The following suggestions all result from where my brain went next. I'm trying to start a discussion here, so please argue with me, make suggestions, etc.

I've given up wondering why I write. What interests me more is how. I've been thinking about it more and more over the last few weeks, with a certain amount of dissatisfaction. I'm not complaining or looking for sympathy here. It's a very nice rut, and I can steer along it competently, but it's still a rut. Where, in all this writing I churn out, is the adventure? Where is the passion and the challenge? What happened to the impetus to push myself into improving?

In this context, I've been thinking about fanfiction. I'm not interested in starting a debate about the pros and cons of what they write over there. What interests me is how they write. The immediate sense I get from fandom is of energy. People write for the love of it. They challenge each other; spark off each other; mess about and experiment. Why isn't this happening with original fiction? Where are our prompt communities? Where are our challenges? Our writing memes? Drabbles? Timed contests? Crack fests? Why are they having more fun than us?

I realise the virtue of steady writing. Being able to keep going in the face of writer's block and lack of inspiration is one of the things that seperates the potential professional from the amateur. The flipside of that, though, is the risk of getting stale. I also understand that it's easier for people to take risks in fandom, where they're not hurting their own characters, or messing up their own worlds.

Which all comes down to the simple conclusion that I'm going to start messing about. Does anyone else feel the same? Are there other things we could be doing? What about book discussions? We all have overlapping taste in fiction - could we organise a book group of some sort where we nominate a book a month and all set aside a few hours at the end of the month to join in a discussion? Thoughtful reading is, imho, one of the most useful skills for a writer. Or technical discussions? I know we're all pretty good at constructive criticism (yes, I know I've been lax, but you all know how ashamed I am) but what about more general discussions of how to tackle character or world-building or similar broad topics?

It seems, and this is a general observation, not an attack on anyone because I know that different people approach things differently, that we're not using livejournal widely enough. We've got the amazing advantage of a group of like-minded writers and their expertise, and a forum which allows multi-thread discussions. Why don't we use it a bit more? At the moment my LJ bears more resemblance to a primary school news' book than a writer's blog or interactive space. It seems a waste.

Does anyone else think it might be fun to make a mess?

Comments

[saiena.livejournal.com]

*grins* Bring it on, you know I'm more than happy to be silly, make a mess, rant, ramble, discuss and even argue, which I've yet to seriously do on LJ yet. Occasionally I can even be serious. And I thoroughly agree. LJ at the moment feels stale, it's one of the reasons I've been AWOL. Don't even mention Elfwood. My brain was lacking in stimulants so wandered elsewhere.

No insults to anyone, but we've all sort of drifted apart and don't interact much anymore. That was the thing with Elfwood - we were there for the stories and characters, and not a lot else. Here real life crops up, and that's hard to interact with when you don't know the person outside of a comp screen. It's lovely to know how everyone is, and what they are up to, but sometimes it's also nice to talk, be silly, and just be character-centric for a moment.

As for the energy of fan-fic and losing the will to write continously with own characters, yep, am currently wading through that. That is one of the reasons I have so many worlds and stories on the go. Seriously fed up of Shadows and Sea-Fever yesterday, didn't want to write any of them, so I rummaged through my files and found Six. Reminded me why I love dystopic future fantasy.

Which reminds me, must do a - what makes me happy in writing - entry next week.

Personally I try never to figure out how I write, because I know if I look to closely it'll fall apart, become self-conscious and run for cover.

Another thing that keeps it all fresh for me is constantly creating something new. I love the feel of new characters, trying to work them out, playing with a world setting, thinking up new languages. Similarly going back to very old characters and trying to update them. Or even taking an ordinary character and working out what makes them tick. Works best with none main characters, and in my case always ends in a disaster because I have yet more plots on the brain.

Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like if someone came along and tried to write fan-fics of my characters... then I shy away because it would be weird. Other times I wonder what it'd be like if some of my characters met other people's in fairly normal settings. Or, just for the hell of it, other characters that aren't mine. I personally would pay good money to see Lorannon and Nimbus sit down together for a chinwag... or a boast session... probably in a bar. But then I'm strange.

What's the point of virtue if you don't do something with it? The wise don't get there if they stop learning. Words I love - Spirit, passion and enthusiasm. If I can't write a story with those, then it makes me wonder why I bother at all.

Of course the trouble with challenges and other such fun things is time, many people won't have the time, or the like.

However, I'm with you, hen ^_^ Talk to me, and I'll be sure to babble back.

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

*sighs in relief* I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been drifting away a little. I think we've all become a little too focussed on producing stuff and lost sight of how much fun it should be.

I like LJ, and knowing what people are up to, but the reason we're all friends in the first place is writing. I was discussing it with Henry a while back, when I first started to scrabble for reading time, and he pointed out that friendships based on reading and commenting are actually very high maintenance, which I'd never really thought about. It's nice to be able to moan about real life, but it seems stupid to have common interests and yet discuss them.

I miss the old character games. I couldn't keep up now, without Elfy access at work, but we seem to be in need of a custard flood or the equivalent.

I'm not sure about time constraints on things like challenges. Okay, if we all write novellas, yes, it's time-consuming. 100-word drabbles, though? 15 minute timed challenges?

I'll have a think. At the moment, I'm just opening things up to discussion.

[saiena.livejournal.com]

So, how did all of you lot get to know each other.

-Well, it started with reading stories really.

I see.

-And then there was a cactus...

Hmm...

-And some shelves, a cardboard cutout of a paladin, a gingerbread selkie, and custard.

Custard?

-*ahem* Yes, custard.

As in the yellow dairy product, sometimes made by Ambrosier (Devon knows how they make it so creamy) type of stuff?

-Er... yes.

Okay *frantic panic button pressing* Please, continue.

-Well, there then came a lot of boats -

Boats?

-And canoes and kayaks, you know, to get through the custard.

Riight... I have to leave now.

-But this is your office.

That's fine. Please, let yourself out. Bye!


And me, high maintenance? Wherever would you get that idea from?

100 word drabbles... 15 minute challenges... you do know I will be unable to succeed on either. I mean, look, this is just a reply. It'd be like chopping my fingers off.

;) Come on, Ms Morgan, get into full teacher mode.

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

*snickers*


100 word drabbles... 15 minute challenges... you do know I will be unable to succeed on either. I mean, look, this is just a reply. It'd be like chopping my fingers off.

I dare ya.

[saiena.livejournal.com]

What, to chop my own fingers off?

I say, that's rather unsporting of you.

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

*innocent blink*

But you don't need to chop them off yourself. Isn't that what Ima's for?

[saiena.livejournal.com]

Thank you, you have just given Ima ideas.

If I disappear in a few days and no longer take part in your games, then you have no one to blame but yourself...

And now I've got vision of the ripper boggarts in Joseph Delaney's Spooks series, where they trap their victim somewhere, chew off a limb or something (just a couple of fingers) and slowly suck all their blood out...

Mmm, on that cheery thought - Happy Friday *salutes*

[alintaflame.livejournal.com]

Perfect. I was just thinking that the LJ I created solely for writing contains a heck of alot of unwritery stuff. What do you suggest?

And thus I declare you the new President of the ........ LJ society.

hehehehehheheheheheeee

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

O_o Oh, 'elp. Did I just volunteer myself to do something?

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[shanra.livejournal.com]

Where are our prompt communities?

Loads of places, given that you know where to look. And the question is whether they're active. Just look through the community interest list for writing. Count to that that there are plenty of forums out there dedicated to the same thing. And then detract every single one of them that's bled to death for some reason or another.

Most of those that are active seem to be those built up out of groups like ours. Like-minded people who also happen to be friends and/or friends or friends. Closely-knit circles at any rate.

Others thrive on comment-for-a-comment like principles and aren't so much for writing as they are for criticism, which as you noted, we already do a fair bit. ^-^

Those are just my observations (and experiences), though, so they could be different for other people. There are also places like WritersCo and Elftown which are technically larger communites, but all break down into tiny pieces when examined closely. Those comment exchange notes on Elfwood sites mean little beyond stating 'I return comments' in nice gold letters. There isn't any friendship there.

I've been an admin for some place or another for the majority of my teens. Keeping anything alive online is hard work, make no mistake there. People have real life interference, people drift apart... Loads of things happen. It's not impossible, but know what you're getting yourself into.

Personally, I've missed being a part of a forum or a community, though I relish the fact that it means I've stopped spending my time on them and have had more time to focus on my writing. That's one thing the internet doesn't really give us -- a place to 'hang out' together. LJ could give us that, if we want it to and if we let it. LJ isn't the only site that could, but it's a convenient one all the same.

I've been toying with the idea of projects before, really. But I'm too chicken to bring it up first. More of a passive person. Not too good at discussions either. Fun to read, but not so much fun to participate in them. Had my hands burnt a few times too many.
Given how timed contests depend largely, on, well, time, I don't think those would be the best idea. It's too dependent on real life factors we can or cannot predict.

I can pretty realistically say that in December and June, I'm supposed to be studying for exams and I'll want to feel like I have time available. Never mind that I stuff it full of non-studying activities. ^-~ Really do have to change that sometime...

Erm, anyway, point is -- it's unpredictable. Likely to get results in a decent time frame from some people, yes, but still highly unpredictable. I know I'm very unlikely to finish anything on time for a deadline, unless it's a deadline for something like grades. Guess I'm odd like that. I don't know how I'd handle timed things, though I'd like to work on it if I knew I'd have the time to. Last semester coursework just ate the life out of me, or consumed all my time.

I still write for the love of it, even though my writing is mainly consumed to larger pieces. Every single one of them as cherished as the other, if not always that enjoyed. No one's ever going to like hurting their own characters (unless they're awful characters), nor the characters they like.

I've seen co-written projects, though. A Song So Pure was born from it, even. Don't think that's an idea you've considered yet, but it is one. I seem to recall Brandi and Anne going to have their characters cameo in their stories. Why not do something like that or set up a world for all of us to write in and build on? Again, such projects already exist and the question is whether there's interest, but it could be fun.
Would almost certainly contain general writing discussions.

And that's my semi-coherent ramble after midnight for you. ^-~

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

There does seem to be an upper size limit on this sort of thing. Part of it is the restriction of audience - less people are willing to try to read something by an unknown amateur. You can see that in the ways little subgroups appear on Elfwood.

I've come to dislike the whole comment exchange principle. There's a nasty undertone of obligation to it all. I know that I've been more stressed than I should have been with real life events over the last year because I've been feeling guilty about not reading and letting people down. I suspect that, for me at least, is part of the staleness.

I've never done a co-written project. A big joint world-building thingy would be fun :)

[shanra.livejournal.com]

I'd never really thought of the subgroups like that, though it's true in a way. People read people because they see links everywhere, or because they see comments, mainly.

I've never done a co-written project. A big joint world-building thingy would be fun :)

I've seen it done before (fantasity.com, PlanetSide, for example). Different styles can be an asset, but they can also be the opposite. All a matter of finding a balance and being able to let go of characters and ideas. With co-writing it's all a question of knowing the characters well enough or going with the flow, and if you're going to mix world ideas, deciding which is the dominant structure.

Takes some of the fun out of it, but if you're going to co-write crossover things, you need to sort it or risk getting in a childish argument of
"I do this, so you can't do that!"
"Ha! But because of this you cannot do that!"
"o_O That's silly."

ASSP has several different theories on magic all thrown into one story. At some point, you need to decide who has the right of it and which is the stronger. What is possible, what isn't. Why is this possible in this approach and not in this?

Those are things you need at least a basic frame for, and if you're co-writing it does need to click with your co-writer and styles. With co-world-building there are more options since you don't have to work on the story itself together. *ramble*

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

I suppose there's Thieves World, as well, if you're looking at published collaborations. I've never read any of those but they seem to be a piece of joint world-building, and then everybody worked with their own characters.

I know when it comes to my writing magical and social systems are something I work out very early on, so I suppose it would be a case of doing that before the start.

[shanra.livejournal.com]

Oooh! I've never heard of that/them before. *makes note* Sounds interesting, and it'd work too. If it's necessary for the story that characters meet, I'm sure something could be worked out then. ^-^

When it comes to writing for me, I build a little, start writing and build more as I go along. Sometimes there are pauses to create more background or to think something through before continuing, but most of the time it all goes hand in hand.

For something like this, they'd need to be worked out at least roughly. Enough to give people a framework, but enough to give them room to fool around it. Above all, it should be fun to do.

So... Next question, if we're going to go through with making writing more fun/versatile again, where do we do it? Stay with personal LJs, revamp talechasing, make a new community?

coastwallker is right about the calendar challenge. ^-^ For me, it was the time restraint. ^-^; I wasn't sure I was going to be able to finish on time, so I chose not to participate.
It did sound like a lot of fun, though, and had some great results. ^-^ Things like that would be lovely to see more often. (And, in my case, really, participating. There's still trees unwritten, no?)

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

I tend to have ideas as I'm walking along/at work etc. so by the time I start putting things on paper I usually have quite a lot of the plot and characters worked out. Once I start pinning it down into precise words, I usually pause to work out the details of the background, which then feeds into developing the next chunk of plot. I'm always half a book, or equivalent, ahead of what I'm actually writing.

I haven't really thought this through far enough to have any big ideas. I was really hoping to start a discussion. We could use talechasing more, and theirvoices. The drabble meme should be fun, and there's a lot of those twenty-question type memes which we could do for characters rather than ourselves.

Did you see alintaflame's magic realism challenge? That looks fun.

The calendar challenge was fun, but I'm not really thinking of big events like that (personally, I'm just too tight for time). I was thinking more of little everyday things.

[shanra.livejournal.com]

*looks around* Think you have 'yea-sayers' so far.

Actually, I think talechasing would be lovely for posting (short) challenges and drabble challenge requests and the like. I wouldn't even know of a magic realism challenge, if you hadn't mentioned it just now. Having a community, yes, is slightly more cumbersome to post than in your own journal, but it means having things like this in one place.
It's just a thought there, really.

Character meme are lovely. We could design our own too, if we wanted.

The calendar challenge was fun, but I'm not really thinking of big events like that (personally, I'm just too tight for time). I was thinking more of little everyday things.

Oh, I know the feeling. I don't think we should have many of them. Or if we do that the deadline isn't "finish before this date" but "finish within a time frame of ____" so you can pick it up whenever you want/have time to work on something.

As with anything, it'd just be throwing things out for people to try/work with if they want to. Little larger than everyday things still, but possibly more manageable. ^-^

[coastwallker.livejournal.com]

I know this is not really for me, but just an observation. What brought you lot together in a brilliant way recently was your story challenge. All the wonderful stuff that came out of that. Now that was fun.

And I maintain my constant argument with loads of people that authors don't always write because they have a point to get across. They write because they enjoy it. Because they can.

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

The story challenge was fun ^_^ I'm looking at slightly less time-consuming things.

There's no harm in having a point and an idea behind what you write - in a way you need that to hold a story together. If all you have is the point, though, it's rhetoric, not fiction.

[ambsdrig.livejournal.com]

Great post and rings on so many levels.

I've been AWOL reading tons of fan-fiction - and though most of it was shody to be polite it was the pure enthusiasm that had be flying through their tale even if it was in a genre I would never have imagined myself to read - case in point a close to 40 chapter tale that though based in the HP universe was only using magic to aperate or flu to the next date - yes I read a bleeping romance and had to finish it though I hated the story; somehow the chars and enthusiasm had me hooked.

I guess I should put my spare time and energy into here. Thanks for posting something to make me question why I was doing what I was.

And now I guess where I'ld planned on ignoring the latest challange from Alinta I need to put my money where my mouth is and try to write something as I haven't been writing but reading drudge. But high energy drudge in my defense.

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

I've been doing much the same thing. I'm self-analytical enough that I've been trying make sense of it for a while. I don't think craft and energy are mutually incompatible, but there is a trade-off. It's time to try to get that sort of energy into my own writing.

If you're not up for magic realism, try drabbles. They're fun to craft. ^_^

[paantha.livejournal.com]

Wow. Ok, well somehow I managed to miss reading this post but now I've come back, spotted it and read it all.

*huggles*

I totally understand. What was fun about elfy -- the mad commenting sprees, the lemming/poppet wars, the GBmen and GB selkies, drunken character parties, etc. all with multiple people involved seem to have peetered out. Added to that, no one really seems to update much any more -- on LJ or elfy.

Over the past few months, all I've been reading is Becca's stuff (Tempest, Song, Sea Fever) and Shanra's stuff (Tides), plus Joelle's 2nd book via email. Maybe that sounds like a lot, but it isn't really. Not that I'm blaming anyone at all for not writing or for not updating. Anyway, that would be mighty hypocritical of me, seeing as I'm one of the worst offenders of the lot. What have I written in the past month? Nothing. In the past three months? Nothing. In the past 5 months? Well, I've started Rowan and started a random challenge and finished neither. I've also got a Shaiel-challenge a waiting that I really can't think of anything to write about.

I am terrible.

Sometimes I wonder if I really should be calling myself a writer at all.

Ok, so I've been thinking about WtF recently. And I think that pretty soon --namely after my exams-- I will probably start back on writing that, starting from near-scratch again. But still, a writer? Me?

Why did I write before? Well, purely for the fun of it. I wrote (and write) purely what comes up as I'm typing. Yeah, I play around with the world at other times, and plan it through a bit, but the plot is mainly just random inspiration hitting at the moment. I love the tingle of something snapping together, something becoming clear. I love having twisty plots (although mine may be rather thin -- but never mind, I am a beginner, I accept that) and, maybe even more than people praising my work directly, I love seeing people keep reading because they care about the characters, or because they really can't see what's coming ahead, or what their past might be, and so they have to read on.

Briefly, minutely, I felt that with WtF. Hopefully, when I start writing it again, I'll feel that again. We shall see.

As for memes, discussions, co-authoring and general messing around. I would love to. I would love to do more challenges -- small things, though, at least for the main of it -- ok, I started real real late on Rowan, but the fact remains that I still haven't finished it.

I think we should use talechasing more -- put up challenges, questionnaires to be filled out by characters, do mini-writing challenges like drabbles and the like, etc. etc.

Theirvoices could be used too -- I'm sure it would be loads of fun (and helpful writing-wise) to really try to get into a character's shoes. And people could do those character interview-things like someone (Shanra?) was thinking about doing a while back.

As for co-writing or muck-about writing worlds that everyone can use. Well, for what it's worth, I've got the very basic beginnings of an angel-based world that people can use if they want. Ok, so technically it was meant to be for a book of mine, but hell, like I'm ever going to even finish WtF any time soon, let alone another book. If you want to know what I've worked out for the world of that (which is very minimal, I must say, so it's very open to people playing around with it if they like) then just ask.

The fact is, elfy isn't fun any more. It's pretty dead really. We don't really post there like we used to, we don't have fun there like we used to. The people who come by my stories (ok, admittedly, I haven't written updated in over a year, so obviously you guys can't be blamed for not reading and commenting since you've DONE IT ALREADY) are random people, almost always people in their early teens who are just starting out writing, and you feel obliged to go back and read and comment. But you're not really doing it for fun. Not really for the reading either -- it's not that good, and more than half the time they don't appreciate or return your constructive crit. YOu just do it cause it's what you do. Which is no fun at all.

[paantha.livejournal.com]

Umm, wow, never overshot the LJ comment word-limit before...

Anywho::

Writing should be fun. Reading should be fun.

And I think without some sort of something, we're all going to start drifting off, which would be a terrible shame. Ok, so LJ was fun for a while. To start with, it was kinda cool to read about what your elfy-friends were up to when they weren't writing, it was kinda fun -- and it helped me make more friends -- Brandi & Shanra. But, ok, that shine has worn off it. All we're really doing now is reading about the lives of people on the other side of the globe. And that thing that linked us all together -- that we're writers and readers of fantasy -- somehow is getting a bit lost in the countless real-life LJ posts.

I must say that I rarely post on LJ -- I don't really do diaries, and why would you lot all want to know what I got up to on Friday night with a whole load of people you've never met and will never meet?

Ok, so I've gone on -- I've ranted a whole lot here. Just to let you know, I'd really really like to do some of this -- random messing-about writing. However, I must say that I won't be able to for about a month. I've got exams and, horrid as they are, they're pretty vital. A-levels, and all that. Nasty things, but needed if I want to go to uni in Sept. And, to be honest, if I can't go to uni (not that I see this as going to happen, even if I completely screw up my exams) I really can't see what I'd ever actually do with my life after now. I need to get my A-levels so I can go to uni, so I can get a degree, so I can go do lab-based science. And now this is turning into an even more pointless rant about education, which you know all about anyway.

So I'm going now.

*huggles*

[rosiphelee.livejournal.com]

(replying to both in one)

First off, you are not terrible *hugs* You write, your want to write, and your characters are still alive to you. That makes you a writer in my book.

I can understand why a lot of the Elfy madness stopped - a lot of people have been munched on by RL recently. But, even when one had no time to write great epics, that doesn't mean not writing at all. There are things - like the drabbles and mini-challenges - which can keep the fun alive.

(I also agree about the quality of Elfy commenting dropping off. Partly, it's because I just can't devote the time to Elfy that I used to, but I'm sure the time I spent mentoring used to be balanced by the fantastically good stuff. I'm not doing either anymore)

I think LJ has had a mixed effect. Certainly there are people I'm friends with now that I wouldn't have been without it. You're right, though - the real life posts have drowned out the creativity. I think it's time we remember why we all became friends to start with. We either do nothing and let things drfit apart, or we can try to rescue it before it gets worse. I think we've made a good start this weekend. It may yet fail, but at least we're trying.

Of course, your A-Levels take priority. You won't appreciate this, but I think you'll be alright. Just keep calm, and try not to get distracted. You haven't done what I did, which was taking advantage of study leave to start a new novel.

*hugs*